Every once in a while, someone comes into #phonon on freenode and asks us this unassuming question:
<PhononUser> my application must know which backend is installed gstreamer or xine
The usual answer is something like this:
<tdfischer> no it doesn't <tdfischer> first, xine is dead <tdfischer> second, no you don't
Ignoring the request to poke a few leaky holes in the abstraction that is a perfectly fine multimedia stack, there’s one thing to take away from this:
Phonon-Xine is dead.
Once more, in unison:
Phonon-Xine is dead.
In case you missed it back in June, the commit-digest has an interview with yours truly concerning all the nitty gritty details and what is needed for Phonon-Xine to come back (hint: it isn’t a phonon or even a kde-multimedia problem). If you don’t know which backend to use, you’re probably actually doing it wrong. Or you’re a distro developer who is trying to build the proper UX for your end users. Your only choices right now are GStreamer or VLC. GStreamer is tons better than what it used to be, and VLC works everywhere GStreamer doesn’t easily work, such as Windows or OSX.
well…on my system phonon-xine works perfectly since ages, but phonon-gstreamer causes problems everywhere (mostly codecs but there are also problems deeper in the system)
so why are you declaring xine dead, if its the only solution which works out of the box for me and lots of people i know?
If you read the interview at the commit digest, you’ll know why the Xine backend is dead.
Would you mind pointing me to some bug reports that document GStreamer’s problems?
I do not know off special bug reports. But when Xine went bye bye and I switched to gstreamer, it was no longer possible to watch any movie or DVD or DVD ISO with dragonplayer. Only a weird checked texture is shown at the bottom of the window and nothing happens. “Use something else” is no real option, because the dragonplayer is the only one that fully plays movies while dragging the progress bar to find a specific position. Quite essential for me.
I daresay that is quite some regression and the reason why I am here.
With phonon-vlc the movies, DVDs and ISOs are played again, but the menus aren’t working, neither by mouse nor keyboard.
And using VLC directly renders most menus unusable, some are overlays and not even displayed.
I have read the interview, and it is okay to drop something unmaintained. Alright. But it is not okay to throw something working out of the window, replacing it with something obviously not working at least as good in the same places. (I know that gstreamer is tons better in different areas, but simply not there.) The reason “there was no update” simply does not count as long as it is working.
It was quite a bit of a shock when the movies I am creating out of test data of one of my projects can no longer be viewed. It is like turning of the console in the middle of a gdb session for me.
I’m not saying that phonon-xine is not working, I’m simply saying that any bugs present in it will never be addressed and that if you tell us to fix phonon-xine bugs, we’ll simply shrug and point you to the other maintained backends.
But thanks for letting me know about the DVD iso issue. I’ll be looking into that very soon.
At least with Xine I could seek my MP3 files, play every song and not have Amarok skip them at random, ………
xine is dead I’ve heard that before but there is still vlc vs gstreamer issue, which one is better? which one is more actively developed? which one brings better multimedia support? can’t you guys focus on one main project instead of dozens short living wannabe?
They are both actively developed. They both have a long-term plan and will be around for a very very long time. They both provide the same quality and quantity of support.
(sorry for the double post but my linbereaks were eaten)If you don’t know which backend to use, you’re probably actually doing it wrong.That’s me! Ok, so tell us! Which to use? I’m running some Debian machines that have been upgraded from one KDE to another for a long time and the backend wasn’t automatically decided for me, so I am kinda like this:Or you’re a distro developer who is trying to build the proper UX for your end users. Yes, build it for myself. I am surely not alone, this is Linux.I’ve used Xine in the past for other KDE things, since GStreamer is a GNOME technology (I think, but I may be wrong!) and VLC was also GNOME until somewhat recently. It seemed that Xine was the only KDE option, which is important to make KDE function properly.Your only choices right now are GStreamer or VLC.Ok, so, which to use? What happens when one fails, does Phonon auto-choose the next one to try the playback again? I’m not familiar enough with these, but why do we even need choices in this, why can’t Phonon be built to play back without a separate backend?
Strangely, phonon-xine is the only one that works reliably for me.
I have a straight ALSA setup, no pulse or other junk. phonon-vlc gets hung up on .mp3/.cue combos in Amarok while gstreamer fails to produce any sound.
Any particular reason you aren’t using Pulseaudio? It is the recommended setup and the one the phonon team supports the best.
Pulseaudio? Sorry, but the question can be rewritten as:
“Why do you use a bicycle to go 50 yards when the 100ton tank is our preferred choice ?”
Pulseaudio is great for media centers streaming data through your household. It is not a choice on systems where its pumped up overloaded resource hogging feature set is mostly useless. Like on a laptop. I need my RAM. And I do not have more than two tiny speakers. So using Pulseaudio would be like using a sledge hammer to drive a nail into a wooden wall.
My pulseaudio process uses 7M ram at most. gnome-shell uses 12M. I don’t think calling pulseaudio “bloated” is really a valid argument without seeing some real metrics to back up such a claim.
what about a comparison chart between gstreamer and vlc backends?
which is the overall the better?
tnx
There isn’t a “better” backend. They both work.
Install both, fire up a player and check memory usage both in total and of shared libraries.
It matters what shared libraries is using the ram though, is it the codec libraries or something else the application linked in?
I may have done something wrong so I don’t really want to tell but when I had gstreamer as the backend earlier I think VLC seemed to use less resources, and also if you switched to VLC as backend I think it used less than bangarang and dragon player.
And imho VLC look nice and I know that you can delay subtitles and such I don’t know how far such features go in the other two. I want a player which actually work and can do what I need.
The issue I have though is that openSUSE installed gstreamer by default so I don’t know how easy the libraries would be to clean out and telepathy uses libpurple which use gstreamer directly. If someone could separate the MSN and the webcam & voice stuff (I assume) so the MSN protocol could still be supported (I don’t need it though but I don’t think it was only recommended. I don’t know. I could ditch it in that case) then I could remove gstreamer.
Now I can’t.
I don’t have that much RAM so I would prefer to not load different things which do the same thing. So preferably not VLC as player with phonon using gstreamer or telepathy using gstreamer with VLC as backen for phonon.
It seemed like VLC was better but I should recheck it (I don’t like how the mixer volume work though since I don’t want to “overdrive” / distort the sound) but maybe gstreamer is seen as cleaner and more correct?
Hi, what about MPlayer backend? I saw that it is now on projects.kde.org but with no releases…
MPlayer is dead as well. No known distribution ships it.
isn’t smplayer one of the most developped and used media applications?
Perhaps. Doesn’t make the MPlayer backend any less dead.
I’ve used Xine in the past for other KDE things, since GStreamer is a GNOME technology (I think, but I may be wrong!) and VLC was also GNOME until somewhat recently. It seemed that Xine was the only KDE option, which is importnat to make KDE function properly.
(sorry for the double post but my linebreaks were eaten)
That’s me! Ok, so tell us! Which to use? I’m running some Debian machines that have been upgraded from one KDE to another for a long time and the backend wasn’t automatically decided for me, so I am kinda like this:
Yes, build it for myself. I am surely not alone, this is Linux.
I’ve used Xine in the past for other KDE things, since GStreamer is a GNOME technology (I think, but I may be wrong!) and VLC was also GNOME until somewhat recently. It seemed that Xine was the only KDE option, which is important to make KDE function properly.
Ok, so, which to use? What happens when one fails, does Phonon auto-choose the next one to try the playback again? I’m not familiar enough with these, but why do we even need choices in this, why can’t Phonon be built to play back without a separate backend?
the problem is not with phonon ability to handle multiple backends, problem is that not so long ago there was 5 (!) backends for linux + 1 for win + 1 for mac, xine is dead for some time now, mplayer and nmm are unmaintained, so choice is clear (or is it?) between gstreamer and vlc, but which one is better what are the differences? why linux can’t have one good, working and future completed multimedia stack?
The answer to that has been debated thousands of times before, so I honestly don’t feel like further beating this horse into a fine mist.
The only difference between the GStreamer and VLC backends is the name. You don’t need to worry about which one is ‘better’ than the other. The two both support nearly every codec known to mankind and have parallel performance and footprints.
If you’re a distribution developer, you can come into #phonon and ask which backend you should package up for your distribution. If you’re a user who just wants their multimedia to work, trust in your packagers.
On Debian Linux (and many others), I PICK THE PACKAGES TO USE. The packager people build them but they don’t decide which to use. So I am asking you which to use, as you seem to know, but you’re not answering the question.
The answer is “whichever you want”.
Seriously. There isn’t a difference.
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Now if only Dragon Player were actually feature-complete without xine-lib and Phonon-Xine…
Patch here (not tested at all yet, I’m waiting for 4.7.1 to be built in Rawhide so I can make sure the patch builds; right now we have 4.7.1 in dist-git, but not built, so I can’t easily test a patch in Rawhide right now): https://svn.reviewboard.kde.org/r/6794/
IMHO this feature regression should have been sorted out BEFORE declaring Phonon-Xine dead.
Phonon-Xine was declared dead a long time ago, but nobody seemed to have brought this issue up back then.
There doesn’t seem to be an “official” maintainer of dragon at the moment, so thats probably why that issue slipped through the cracks.
Harald “apachelogger” Sitter has been aware of the issue for quite some time. In fact, this is why Phonon 4.5.0 got support for triggering the DVD menu via the API in the first place. He also intended to update Dragon Player for it, but he didn’t get around to doing it, nor did he tell you about the issue, it seems. I guess I should have talked to you as well. Communication breakdowns happen…
Well, dragon doesn’t work without Xine in version 4.7.4 with phonon 4.6.0 and neither phonon-gstreamer-4.5.1 (nothing played) nor phonon-vlc built from git (menus not working).
It’s a pity this great player sounds like being unmaintained.
True, but I plan on taking up maintainership once kdemultimedia’s conversion from SVN to git is finished. Should be done by sunday.
Additionally, there is a dragon 3 coming up that is built with QML and looks slick as ever. I’m really impressed with how nice it looks.
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For info, Xine developpement seems to have restarted, with new versions and bigfixing since February.
Since Xine-backend is by far the best backend when it comes to sound quality, why not reconsidering working back on it?